Miles Better: Ep 1

We get a load of questions about Kaizen, how to use it, and training in general. So in advance of the upcoming Berlin Marathon on 29 September 2024, Josh and Michael (2 of the founders of Kaizen) have decided to record a weekly podcast to talk about their training for Berlin and how they’re using Kaizen support their training.

Episode 1: Berlin Calling

Listen to it on Spotify here.

Transcript

00:02

Welcome to the as yet unnamed Kaizen podcast. I'm Michael, one of the founders of Kaizen and I'm here with Josh. Uh, we do need to come up with a name for the podcast. Uh, hopefully we'll have done that before, before we upload. Um, I'm, uh, I'm Josh, a 228 marathon runner. Um, although that, um, PB is, uh, is getting a bit old nowadays. Uh, 2018. So, um, pre

00:29

pre-Super shoes, although of course the pros were wearing Super shoes in 2018. Um, but I wasn't. You're wearing bare feet, right? I was wearing, uh, ASICS HyperSpeed, the next best thing from bare feet, uh, before carbon plates really, uh, really got good. Um, but I've PB'd across the other distances since then. It's just the, the marathon I'm still, uh, still searching for that. I'm at PB with. So why don't you tell us a bit about, um, your running journey and

00:57

I can do the same and then we can talk a bit about what this podcast is about. So, um, I guess I'm very lucky in that I've been running pretty much my, my whole adult life. I started doing, um, kids triathlons, uh, like schools, cross-country as a child. And then got into math and did my first math and when I was, uh, 17, um, and then progressed since there, but was really not a particularly good math

01:27

I started to take it seriously, realized that to get faster, you have to actually train. So you did the first ones, not training? Well, I thought at the time I was training, but looking back on it, no, it was terrible. You know, I was putting together very inconsistent training, not like progressively overloading and building up that training load, but more just doing more ad hoc stuff without any real plan. No GPS watch.

01:57

no structure to my training at all, just running whenever I felt like it. And the results reflected that, right? I was having a lot of fun, but not really. So I've got in my head, you have a race and you're like, yeah, I'm doing this marathon, you wake up on the day and you sort of like, yeah, I feel like going for a run today and then you either do what you don't. Pretty much. Yeah. I would kind of not find a whole array of excuses not to, not to do a run. You know, I'm either recovering from my last.

02:26

last race or tapering or for whatever reason, generally not running. And then I'd realize, my God, the race is in two weeks time. I better do a 30K run. Yeah. And it turns out that doesn't work with training. And yeah. So tell me when you saw the light and what the light looked like. I guess it was about when I was 19 or 20, I guess. So after a few years of doing marathons, I.

02:56

I realized that I actually wanted to, I was enjoying it and wanted to, you know, like take it a bit more seriously. Um, uh, and thought, well, the first step to becoming a bit faster is to, if I want to take it seriously, actually do some, do some real training, um, more consistently and did, um, with a consistent training turns out, um, produces really good results. Uh, and it was kind of like step by step from there producing.

03:24

increasingly good results from just ever increasing training. And you ran your PB, was it in Leeds? I believe Yorkshire. So Leeds is it is in Yorkshire for those of you who are showing my skills. Yeah. But the race is actually in York, which is the kind of sort of Yorkshire, I guess. And it was a.

03:53

Yorkshire marathon is a really nice marathon with a relatively fast course, but not like, not super, super fast. I mean, it's pretty fast, but it's not like pan flat like Berlin or Chicago or anything. Yeah. And I ran it in there in October 2018, I think. And your training at the time, if I recall correctly, was pretty much run commuting, but kind of extreme run commuting. Yeah. I, for the year beforehand had been living

04:21

like 18 kilometers away from where I worked. Pretty much run commuting every day. So I'd run 18K into work, 18K home, cross country as well. So it was like actually a pretty good excuse to be late for work. Sorry guys, I had a headwind this morning, but it was, it was muddy out. So it was, it was kind of a tough run with a backpack as well. There was nowhere to store my stuff at work. So I had to carry all of my clothes. Towel, towel, shoes, little laptop.

04:50

So I was really getting some, some hefty training in there. Um, so what sort of mileage are you doing in those weeks? I had averaged, uh, if I think I look back across my stats, I'd averaged 178 kilometers a week at an average pace of 445 or 448 per kilometer. Yeah. Um, so decent. And they were like pretty meaningful kilometers as well, because those, they were weighed down by backpack across mud. Across mud. Yeah.

05:19

Um, so I actually, I actually think I, um, you know, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I underperformed slightly in the race. Um, maybe could have gone a bit faster if I run the first half a bit slower, but didn't, um, there was a pretty small pack of us at the front and we were racing maybe more for position than, than time. So, uh, I think if I'd run more intelligently, um, I could have, uh, got on it.

05:47

a small amount faster, not that much faster of course. I mean, at the same time, you're at the front, like the leading pack of a marathon, you're going to race it. You're not going to like run the most. I didn't have much. Like rigorously paced race so that you can maximize your finish time. You want to win, right? And I didn't have much of a choice about the pace we were going at, right? I did make a lot of good decisions on the course as well. But I think my point is that like from that many kilometers.

06:15

170 something kilometers at 448 on cross country terrain. I think if I had done that in, uh, and then raised in like say Berlin or something, maybe I would have gone a little bit better because I would be able to, uh, make more, make decisions that only relate to getting the fastest finish time possible rather than the fastest pace. Well, with the 228 in Berlin, you're coming to a hundredth or something. Tell us about yourself though. What's your running journey been like?

06:42

did not get into it anywhere near as early as you, although I did run when I was a teenager a bit, I was an 800 meter runner, eights and fifteens actually, middle distance. I wasn't great, I was okay at school, but you know, that was about it. And I'd sort of played a lot of soccer back home, football for the rest of the world. And... Yeah, definitely football, definitely football. And we're not having soccer on this podcast. Now that I've lived in Berlin for nine years, it's definitely football.

07:12

So, uh, I would run sort of five Ks every other day, uh, in amongst football training, just because I don't know when you're at high school and you're studying hard, you kind of need a bit of a break from it. Um, that was about it. Forgot about running, continued playing football, moved to Berlin, still wasn't running as probably when I got to about, I don't know, 29, 30.

07:41

that I started running like fast 5Ks around Hassenheide, which is where I was living and coincidentally where the park run is. Yeah. Were you turning up to the park run then? No, I was not. I had no idea about the park run then. I would just go sort of three times a week, flat out two laps of Hassenheide. So two full laps is probably pretty much 5K, right? Yeah, I think so. Like maybe four and a half, 5K. And that was all I knew how to do. And a dude at work was like, yeah, my...

08:11

We're out having a few beers one night. It was like a Wednesday and he was like, Oh, my girlfriend's doing this half marathon this weekend. So I was like, right. Hey, signed up, uh, rocked up on the. I think it was the Sunday with really no idea what to expect. I'd never run more than 10 Ks before. Um, in one go. So it's amazing how many people get into running by, um, deciding after a few beers to enter a.

08:41

a marathon or half marathon or something. And then what amazes me isn't the number of people that make that decision to like, to enter but how many people then actually like meaningfully follow through with it and turn up on the day and having made this decision after some beers, and then to follow through and like stick to your guns. That is quite impressive stuff, I think. Well, I had a great time. I had no idea what to expect. And I just rocked up and sort of went for it with some

09:10

Italo disco playing. Do you remember which course it was? I think it was the, maybe it was the S 25. Um, Oldest road racing by then, I think. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that was it. And, uh, it was good fun. I think around like 136 or something. So I had no idea. So pretty good time for someone that's training involved. Yeah. This, this colleague was like blown away. I was like, I mean,

09:40

I wasn't near the front of the race. Like, I'm sure it's fine, but it's, it's not great. And he was sort of like, you know, maybe you should try training a bit. And I think that was maybe 2017. I think by 2019, I did my first marathon here in Berlin, uh, in like a 303. Uh, and then last year brought that down. We ran Hamburg together. You ran a 233, I think. Yeah. I do or 234 perhaps, but yeah, around about that. I ran a 238 and then, um,

10:09

Uh, in Berlin last year, I ran brought that down to a 237. So both Josh and I are running Berlin in a few weeks time. I would like to, you've skipped over some really important details in your, uh, your math history in that. Michael is one of the very few people who's done, how many math, five or five. Yeah. Five math and PB did everyone. Yep. Going from 303 to 55. Yep. To.

10:38

243 odd and then 238 and 237. Which is, um, phenomenal stuff. I mean, really to, to like, uh, uh, get a PB in every race like that, um, requires intelligent training, intelligent racing, um, and really just like, yeah, super difficult. The number of, I would say that, I mean, I've done maybe 25, 30 marathons now, uh, and I think perhaps. Five of them have gone really well. Um,

11:08

And to get a PB and have five of five races go really well is something special. I don't think many people can. Yeah. I mean, the stakes are high, right? So every time I line up, there's a lot of pressure to keep that streak. So we'll see how we go in about a month's time in Berlin. Yeah. What's your, do you think you're going to do it? I mean, your. Yeah. Well, Kaizen's got me down at two 40 now. So I've got a month to bring that down by about five minutes. Two 40 dead. Thereabouts. Yeah. Just a.

11:36

a bit above, last I saw it was a little bit above. Well, I ran 20k's this morning before I saw you. Ah, okay. I haven't checked the most recent stats. So I'm hopeful that if everything goes to plan, I might be able to get under 235. We'll see. So I think you've got another, what is it, the race on the 29th of September? Yeah, the third today. It's the third day. So that's like another, well, two and a half weeks of meaningful training.

12:06

I think you would struggle to beat my PB. So do I. So I can sleep easy knowing that I should still be the fastest, fastest of the, of the Kaizen team out there. But although not, not on the, you'll be much faster than me. Now that you've said that, I'm like, now that you've said that, I'm like, all right. All bets are off. I'm putting in like the biggest leaks possible. See how much I can cram. But under 235 is definitely for sure. I mean, I think you would, uh, even with.

12:36

Phenomenal training, I think. Yeah. Cutting off that much in near like 10 minutes in, in two and a half weeks would be a real push, but like two, yeah. You mean you 233, 232, 234 maybe. It'd be a big win. Anything under, anything under the PB would be a big win. I think it could be a hot one though. Yeah. If the heat. We had that hot one a few years ago. Oh, we ran together and yeah, we ran together. I was about dead at halfway and you were like.

13:05

Come on, mate, let's keep it up. And I was like, seriously, like I'm done. It's halfway and I'm done. You go ahead, I'll just chill. And then I sort of like found a second life at some point. And then I just sort of see Josh coming back to me about five Ks later. And then it was me that was like, come on, Josh, like pick it up, buddy. I think you remember you coming past about 32 K and you think, this has gone bad. It was not a fun last 10 K. That was a brutal day out.

13:35

It was probably like 25 degrees by the time we finished and Berlin, like, it's a great course when it's overcast, but it can be pretty exposed because the streets are pretty wide open with not a huge amount of tree cover. So, and when it's going badly, you have this section that like from the furthest out point, what is it like 27 K or 28 K or something. You're out in the

14:03

It feels like the countryside is suburbia. Yeah. Out there. And it feels like you're a long, long, long way away in the city center. Coming back into town with the sun kind of like on your back at that point. I'm not quite on your back, but like hitting you full power. You're out in the, in the, in the, in the sticks. Uh, and it feels like you're a long way away from home at the point where the race is getting hard as well. So when it's going badly, it really compounds.

14:31

Yeah. It's an interesting one because the flip side of that is that when, and I had this in Berlin last year, when if you've got a head full of steam, you haven't spent all your chips and you can get to 32, 33 K where it turns on to a dumb, like I remember like they always have this like speakers just pumping. Yeah. I mean, that's when the people start up here, the crowd stuff. Yeah. And then if you've got like more in the tank.

15:01

people start coming back to you because, you know, everybody stuffs up their barren for some pacing, myself included. Last year was just like absolute euphoria. You hit crew down, people start coming back to you. Like all bets are off, off you go. Um, you feel like you're just mowing people down the front and center. Oh, it's a good feeling when that happens, but you know, I've had that twice. And then what was the other time? First, first marathon, which I think I paced quite conservatively.

15:30

Also, also Berlin, right? Yeah, also. They're the two that I've never negative split the others were positive splits. So when you say that they were like, you know, all PBs and have raced them well. I don't think I raced. Okay, so maybe two or two or five gone really well. Yeah. But to have gone okay. And then one has not gone well. But it was still a PB. The one on the hot day. Yeah, okay. That was

15:59

Uh, you were in better shape and, and, uh, made smart decisions on the course. Anyway, yeah. Right. So about us. So, um, what we do, what we've been doing is, well, Josh has mainly been doing, uh, and I've been chipping in a bit here and there, but, uh, we've, we've built this app, Kaizen, um, and we get a ton of questions about how it works because it's a running app that helps you train.

16:29

Um, at the moment, it's really well geared towards people who want to run marathons and particularly those who want to improve their marathon times. Um, and the secret source is the fact that it leverages a marathon prediction, which is pretty bloody accurate. And it uses that prediction to tailor all your training around then say goal time that you might want to hit. But where it's different to pretty much every other training app is that it's not.

16:56

about the specifics. So to just give you a training load target each week. Yeah. And it's maybe I'll jump in there and say that, um, for anyone that's not, uh, quite sure what Michael means when he says training load, training load is just a measure of the, uh, training effect, training stimulus, uh, that your body has experienced. So really just the level of, um, the amount of stress on your, on your body's systems and then your body responds to that stress by bouncing back.

17:26

stronger, right? That's kind of like the principle of training that you do. So you apply stress to the system and then the system bounces back stronger than it was and the key to, well, I mean, gaining aerobic running fitness, but really kind of any sporting or athletic endeavor is that you progressively build your training load, expose your body to larger and larger stresses and assuming you've

17:56

you're giving your body time and recovery to bounce back between each dose, each exposure, each session you might call it or run. You're going to adapt that and progressively get stronger and stronger or fitter and fitter. So before we go too deep into details, if we've built an app that we're using and can say we've got 10,000 other people using it as well now, which is pretty cool.

18:24

Why are we doing a podcast? Well, we get a ton of questions about it. So, you know, from what Josh has just said, you can hear that it's a little bit different. It's an almost counterintuitive given a lot of how running coaching and running training works because we look at the bigger picture or, you know, the product looks at the bigger picture and helps you get to a longer term goal, taking that into account without worrying too much about specifics. So given that we're both

18:53

training for Berlin over the next few weeks, we thought what we'd do is do a bit of a podcast series where we can walk through our training, how we're using the app to achieve those goals. And like, as part of that, answer a few of the questions that we get along the way, and go into a bit of detail so that everybody can have as much context as we do. So what we'll do is, I think, run through.

19:22

our training weeks. So we'll try and record at the start of a week. It's Tuesday today. We'll go through the previous week. Some running podcasts have listened to they talk about training weeks, and they focus on the specifics. We'll reverse that we'll talk about the overall training load that we were set and achieved. And obviously, in order to achieve that there'll be a couple of things that might stand out, but we'll just try and reverse the model a little bit. We'll also talk about where our

19:52

Predictions started and ended the week, and then also what the next week might look like for us. We'll try and dive into a topic a little bit deeper as well. So for this week, we're going to talk about the history of Kaizen, because it is kind of interesting and good context for people that are new to it.

20:13

So Josh, let's kick it off. Tell us about your training week last week. Last week, well, let me first pull up my app so that I can answer that question with the most accuracy possible. Last week is not the right place to start for me, I'm afraid. We need to start two weeks ago to talk about the story of last week. Let's talk about two weeks ago then. We're gonna do two weeks this week. Because two weeks ago, I raced a...

20:43

Although actually not a marathon, it was the Malweg Lauf in Berlin, which is an ultra, although the race is an ultra, it's a relay. I only did 41k, so just a tiny bit short of a marathon in a relay team. And that was my peak training load week across the last, probably across the last 10 months or so, that was the hardest week I've done. And

21:12

The race went really well. We, we won as a team and actually broke the course record, which was pretty exciting, but I hurt my knee during the race. The race is not on closed roads. It's on bike paths and the camber of the road. I think camber of a bike path is a bit more than the camber of a road. So racing a full marathon flat out on a, on a, always on the right hand side of a road with a bit more of a camber than I'm used to hurt my knee a bit.

21:40

That would have been fine. And I was like, okay, you know, I just heard it a bit need to be a bit more intelligent over the next few days. And then I wasn't very intelligent. I thought I can still recover a good, a good training, uh, training loadout this week, if I just push really hard weekend and, and then got a bit distracted, running a bit too fast on some other sessions, having a bit too much fun. Um, and then hurt my knee a little bit more. So actually.

22:08

The last two weeks have been kind of balancing this slight knee pain I picked up two weeks ago. So last week didn't go perfectly, but I was able to, but I haven't felt the knee for the last two days. So I'm back into it today. Good stuff. I'm happy to hear it. I think we can all relate to feeling a bit of knee pain and then also getting a bit overexcited and thinking it will just go away. Yeah, it was just, I mean, I should have 10 years of

22:36

Marathoning experience. I still can't contain myself when I'm having too much fun Running with friends. That was that was a problem. I was distracted running with friends and So in that week the 19th to the 25th then tell us about like Outside of the race if that's the week in which the race was Tell us you know, how much training did you do? Walk us through the numbers. So the

23:05

The race week was the week before the race week was 12th, the 18th. Uh, on that race week, I heard, um, I had a race day, the race on Saturday, I had a rest day on Friday, but other than that pretty much trained as usual, so just clocked up about 10 K a day, um, each day before the race. And then did the race. So I guess actually a slightly lower, um, train load, knowing that I would be running 40 K, um, 250 marathon pace. And it was a good marathon, right? I still did, did 250.

23:34

or 251 or something. So that was pretty good. And then since then, it's been a bit up and down with some some harder, faster stuff, including a decent decent part from the Saturday afterwards, but did you go 1730 but 1730 seven days. Yeah, 1735 days, seven days, sorry, after a marathon like, yeah, the favorite muscle degradation. Yeah. And it was a hot day as well.

24:04

hot day. So, but basically since the last two weeks, it's been a bit up and down on a day by day basis for me, sometimes getting in 15 K, sometimes getting in 4K if I've had a, the knee's been bothering me when I sleep. If I sleep in the wrong position, it seizes up and gets tangled. I wake up with a sore knee, then I don't do so much training that day. But enough about me, tell me about your last, well actually I'm interested to hear about your

24:34

quickly about your last six weeks, what shape of training that's taken. Okay. So I've been pretty consistent in terms of increasing my training mode over the last six weeks. So if I go back to the end of July, 106 at 457s, 91 at 453s, 112 at 455s. So pretty consistent pace, right? And it's just the distance that's creeping.

25:04

Yeah, distance creeping up. I found myself jogging a fair bit because I just had a lot of things going on. Like two kids work. Um, it's a fair bit. So, um, a lot of my running in that time had been run commuting to the office. If I can squeeze in a lunchtime run and then try and get a longer run in at the weekend, but not much time for faster stuff. So I did.

25:33

do like to do a bit of faster stuff here and there, but I just prioritize getting out the door over everything else, depending on how I feel on the day. Then the last, I was off work last week. I was trying to take advantage of that a little bit, didn't quite manage it. So the last two weeks ago, I did 118 at 446s. And this kind of also was a bit that thing where I kind of, you know,

26:02

pushed it a bit far. We got down to the Dutch seaside with my wife's family. And it was Sunday. I was on about 90 odd Ks or thereabouts. And my mother-in-law was like, look, we've got lunch in an hour and a half, two hours. Are you going to go for a run? And I was like, I'd better go for a run. So I was like, all right, I've got a time box.

26:31

I've got to be back for lunch. I'm going to try and get in as many cases I can in that time. Which is in some ways, and when it goes well, that works really well, but when it goes badly, that's the worst of both worlds, right? Because you're not only forced to run at a time that might not suit you the most, but if you're time limited, the incentive is to run faster, to get more distance done in that time. Yeah.

27:01

Exactly. And I think I'd had breakfast about half an hour before and hadn't even thought about going for a run. Dangerous. Did you see your breakfast again? Thankfully not. And I sort of got out the door and I was like, look, I'll see how I feel. Dutch seaside. Inevitably, there's wind. It was a tail wind. So I got rolling and I ran to the next town, which was about 13 k's away. I was doing like 420s at that point.

27:28

I was averaging 420s at that point. And then I turned around and I was like, oh boy, this second half isn't gonna be a lot of fun. But I was determined not to let the average pace drop too much. So I made it back 25 clicks on the board at 423s. And that sort of got me to my training load target for the week, which was satisfying. Although when I woke up the next day, I had the stiffest

27:58

hip flexor I can possibly remember. So I took it pretty easy the next two days and then was like, still kind of sore, but it's okay when I run, it's just sore when I'm not running. So I took that as a good thing and then decided to put a couple of 23k days together back to back with doubles and managed to get up to... So you had...

28:26

somewhat similar thing happened, but made more intelligent decisions. Right. You felt a bit sore after a longer, harder run. Yeah. Took a little bit of time with a couple of days with a lower training load and then go back into it. Yeah. It's actually what I should have done. All the runs were easy as well, might I add. So interestingly, I had like an 8K day and like a 10K day, and then I did two 23K days and it was after the second 23K day that my hip felt better.

28:56

But like jogging, it's basically like therapy, right? Yeah, I mean, it gives you so much, well, head specs as well, right? Like it's a really great way to find the time for yourself when you're leading a busy life, right? Yeah, so then I managed to get 119Ks done last week, ending the 1st of September at 4.55s. After a big week of jogging, I finished it off with

29:25

three by 12 minute session on Sunday, again, because I was at a time box around Temple of a hundred run there for a while. So I had two of the two of the intervals were at like three fifties or something. And then one of the tools is at four or five. Guess which arm was into headwind. Yeah, I was going to say it's a windy for, yeah, for anyone who doesn't know.

29:52

the specific location Michael's talking about there. It's this former airfield, airport in Berlin, which is a wonderful, wonderful location to run. You know, you can run on the runways and you've got all this space to run or cycle. It's a great, great public park, but it is exposed. There is always a wind. And when it's hot, was it a really hot day as well?

30:20

It was like one o'clock and it was 26 degrees and sunny. Yeah. So you're doing your session into a headwind or rather with a into a headwind sometimes in the heat. That's a pretty unforgiving environment there. Look, I wasn't really enjoying it. And then- But you got it done. Yeah, got it done. So 119 Ks for the week at 455. I finished my week with a prediction of 241.54.

30:50

Um, and I'm sort of seeing hockey stick growth in terms of my progress. So we're very much on the up. Um, so I've seen hockey stick growth as well. Just a different, different, uh, orientation of hockey stick. Yeah. The inverted stick you're tapering off. Yeah. Um, although I think I'm, uh, set to, if I can squeeze a good training load out this week, which I think I should be able to, um, I reckon there's

31:19

five to eight minutes of improvement between now and the marathon, which would put me at yeah, about 245 marathon. Secure your qualification for the next year? Yeah, I think it might be 240 nowadays. Oh, really? They brought it down? And they might have. I know that London has. They might have brought it down because yeah, the Super Shoes, it's always used to be 245. Yeah, okay. Super Shoes just, but that's good. I've got some friends running around that place, so I should be able to.

31:49

run with them, pace them maybe, and still salvage a good day, even though it's not a PB for me. Young John Malkovich or? Uh, the very same. Yep. He's the one. Good stuff. Yeah. If anyone sees a young John Malkovich running the Berlin marathon, give him a cheer. Uh, so look, next week's going to be interesting because you and I are both trying to get some pretty big weeks in. So let's move on to the next.

32:18

section. What we were going to do is talk a bit about the history of Kaizen. So Kaizen in its current form, sort of started when... Oh, yeah, yeah, it started a long 10 years ago or so. Well, it's current form. Current form was me having worked with what Josh had been working on a bit. I have a background in working in startups building

32:48

apps, digital products. And I was like, Josh, this would be a great mobile app. So, yeah, I mean, I've been working on the, on the algorithm and the like underlying science of it for quite some time. Yeah. And then, yeah, Michael kind of came along and we worked together to take that little nugget of good science and turn it into something that's actually usable.

33:18

with a more much more wrapped up in a much more accessible format. And we got Fred, our genius designer involved, who's taken it from a Google sheet to a pretty bloody beautiful app. And Josh has upskilled himself from being the sports scientists behind the model to being the full stack engineer who's literally built the thing from the ground up. So it's been good fun over the last couple of years. We've got

33:47

10,000 users on the app now. We ticked that box last week. And coming back to a bit the history of it, I think that's where it gets interesting. Like the science that Josh has been working away on for the last 10 or so years. Yeah, I'm gonna suggest we leave people wanting more and leave the science for the next episode. Okay, so that's it from us then for today. Next time.

34:15

This time next week, we'll be back to you with a bit about the science behind Kaizen.